Small Scale Military Headquarters

Leopards are better than M1 anyways

Panzer_M wrote:Leopards are better than M1 anyways

If you look around the web these arguements are everywhere with the Merkava and Challenger 2 sometimes thrown in as well. The Leopard 2 and the Abrams have very similar characteristics with each having advantages in certain areas but the M1 has something that the Leopard 2 does not. It has a proven combat record. IMO that gives it the edge against the Leopard 2.

There is no such thing as a better tank than the Abrams.

The LeClerc, Leopard 2, Challenger 2, and M 1 are all very similar, but I have to agree the M 1 is the best. Having a proven combat record also helps. We'll never know for sure though until all 4 tanks do battle against each other and if that happens, man the $hit has hit the fan. Gotta say though - I do love the Leopard. Depending on the price difference between the M1 and Leopard, the Leopard may be the better buy if it is cheaper.

From what I've been reading the LeoII is cheaper and it's also lighter. Depending on the terrain it's to be operated in, political considerations and the economic situation of prospective customers it may well be the superior choice. However the M1 is a damn fine tank by any measure and there is something that has to be taken into account. Tank design isn't stationary. Most deficiencies that have been encountered concerning the M1 are being addressed or have been addresses. There are upgrade kits being fitted to the M1 such as the TUSK (Tank Urban Survival Kt) and there will certainly be others in the future. Until the LeoII is combat tested all of it's deficiencies won't become apparent. In a head to head matchup the quality and experience of the crew is also a huge consideration.

Did the Brits ever get the gunnery up to snuff on the Challenger? I know for a while accuracy was terrible and they dropped out of yearly competition because they were tired of coming in last each time...

Ive never seen a Lep in combat but I did see the M1's and all I can say is that I wouldnt want to be within a mile of an angry M1!

These 4, Challenger, LeClerc, Leopard and Abrams may be the finest main battle tanks in the world but what if............there's no satellite communication between them? M 1 to M1 or Leopard to Leopard ( both of which have the same main 120mm gun, made in Germany until a few years ago). So now their even, as are the other 2 and what ever China and Russia have ready.
It might come down to armor thickness and first shot first kill.
Lets Hope it Never Happens............

I sometimes have to wonder what the logic is with arming Arab nations with some of our best military hardware. Not that I doubt their allied intentions now, but regime change is a common thing in that region and the new regimes are not always friendly to the US and its interests. Think of Iran, whom we once supplied heavily with everything from then-modern M-60s to F-14s... That region of the world strikes me as simply too shaky.

On another note, however, there is some irony in this. Many of you mentioned the proven combat record of the M1. Now, in defeating the tank regiments of what army was it that the M1 earned imortal fame?

This is stupid. Fix up the old Russian tanks we shot upand give them back to Iraq. Doesn't anybody remmember what happened with Iran? We supplied the Shaw he got kicked out . The rag headed Iatola came in and they took all of our weapons supplies. One of the best tank in the world and you want to give it to some turncoat terrorist ? W T F

pickelhaube wrote:This is stupid. Fix up the old Russian tanks we shot upand give them back to Iraq. Doesn't anybody remmember what happened with Iran? We supplied the Shaw he got kicked out . The rag headed Iatola came in and they took all of our weapons supplies. One of the best tank in the world and you want to give it to some turncoat terrorist ? W T F

What you said.

olifant wrote:Did the Brits ever get the gunnery up to snuff on the Challenger? I know for a while accuracy was terrible and they dropped out of yearly competition because they were tired of coming in last each time...

Hell yeah. In fact, a Challenger I holds the record for the farthest kill in combat. It killed an Iraqi tank at 5.1 kilometers.

As for which is better? Hard to say. But it always makes me giggle whenever someone states that the Leopard 2A-whatever is the best tank. Says who? By German defense contractors eager to sell their wares?

Countries who end up purchasing the Leopard over the Abrams always have one thing to say. They chose the Leopard because it's more "economical". So basically, you get the best bang for your buck...but to say it's a best tank in the world?

Hardly.

Five point one kays is one heck of a kill. I am glad the Brits got it figured out. They will always be our closest of ally.