It's so big..

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:14 pm

http://translate.google.com/translate?u ... uage_tools
Here you go aferguson its only 1:32 scale but I think it might work well with your space.

Post by **aferguson** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:17 pm

i can't afford the $6000 price tag. I found a nice 1/40 type VIIC and type XXI for around $600 each, r/c boats, but decided not to get them as at just 6 feet long they were 'undersized' so to speak.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:45 pm

aferguson wrote:i can't afford the $6000 price tag. I found a nice 1/40 type VIIC and type XXI for around $600 each, r/c boats, but decided not to get them as at just 6 feet long they were 'undersized' so to speak.

Come on aferguson we all know that you have billions in Canadian dollars.

Jay · Post by **Jay** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:00 pm

When I was building models at design school, we sometimes used polystyrene. You should be able to purchase different "grades" - as in the size of the "marbles" bound together to form the overall block. I believe the foam used in packaging would be of lower quality in that it is just used to cushion the product (a tv for example) while it is in the box getting transported and stored. If you found a higher grade foam (smaller particles that are compressed tightly together) it may sand alot easier.

We used everything from handsaws, bandsaws, beltsanders and heavy toothed rasps to do the initially shaping. Then progressed right down to fine sandpaper for final shape forming ( you should be able to get quite sharp corners and details). Then once we had our final shape we would fibreglass over the foam so we had a good durable "shell" (at this stage, you could even then chip out the foam core to drop the weight down, just make sure you have at least two layers of fibreglass so he shape doesn't deform from lack of internal structure).

Aferg: have you considered building a half hull boat. That is one split down the middle on a vertical plane bow to stern. I built a boat in this manner (only built the port side) and then just mounted it onto a mirror so the port side was reflected and appeared as the starboard side inside the mirror. Of course with your project - you would need a pretty long mirror mounted on the wall!

tpa05 · Post by **tpa05** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:40 am

Using 2 Liter coke bottles was mentioned in a previous post. I too have been building 1/18 scale vehicles/aircraft and, while they weigh a ton, I use wood and plexiglass as they both respond very well to all kinds of glue. I'd love to be able to use the coke bottles but I can't find a glue that will hold two pieces of coke bottle plastic together. Yea, I know, you'd think crazy glue might work but it doesn't. Any ideas as to what glue might work on your standard 2-liter coke bottles?

Post by **aferguson** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:14 pm

epoxy will work but it's expensive and takes a long time to set.

Another idea....try sanding the surfaces to be glued. You'll find that Krazy Glue works a lot better.

tpa05 · Post by **tpa05** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:17 pm

Epoxy, is there one in particular that you might recommend? I'm heading to both Walmart and Home Depot this afternoon (my second homes lately - it's spring) and would like to pick some up.

Thanks for the help.

Post by **aferguson** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:37 pm

5 minute epoxy is the easiest. You still have to mix it but it sets relatively fast (hard in about 10 minutes, maximum strength after 24 hours). It's messy to use and you have to work quickly so as to use up everything you mix, as in about 3-4 minutes or less it becomes unusable.

Best to mix small amounts and do it over and over rather than mix a whole lot and end up wasting half of it.

Post by **aferguson** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:12 pm

well, i figured out a relatively simple way to make a full hull u-boat. The basic idea is to enlarge side and top view pictures of a u-boat i have, laminate these pictures in sections to bristol board, glue the hull sides to the deck, curve the hull sides around until they touch at the bottom, trim to fit and then do the next section the same way (i envision 4 sections each about 3 feet long).

This is a super simplified explanation but i just tried a rough mock up of one section with the photocopies i was using a couple of days ago and it does work.

The problem is that while it is doable, the quality and precision will be low. So, is the massive size and scale correctness worth the reduced quality of model? I can buy a full hull u-boat that's 6 feet long that is quite a nice model for a few hundred dollars....but it's also about half the size it should be, or i can make this 1/18 scale monster (for about $150 or so), which will be of nebulus quality, but will be to scale and that is worth something. I think my method is simpler and easier than sculpting this beast out of styrofoam and will look just as good quality-wise (in a different sort of way).

The other problem of course is what happens in a few months when i want to have another full hull submarine, or some other huge item....while i can probably display one thing of this size, two is out of the question, unless it's of smaller scale.

Argh.

(what was that link to the small scale forum again?)

Jay · Post by **Jay** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:43 pm

Aferguson - you could maybe form the hull from foam and mdf board. draw out a profile section of the hull at increments of say 1 foot apart (so you would have 11 cross section hull profiles drawn out on paper).

Then cut out and paste each profile onto say 5mm thick mdf board and jigsaw these out (sorry about the measurement being in mm

). I dont know what kind of foam you can get a hold of but for this example you would use foam that is 1 foot thick (minus 5 mm to allow for the thickness of the mdf).

Then glue these sections together so the mdf profiles are sandwiched between the chunks of foam.

Then it's a matter of sanding down the excess foam to match each mdf profile.

(yeah I know, it's ALOT easier to type this stuff than it is to actually get these materials and do it!).

Have you also considered constructing the hull so it could be easily dismantled and put together again. Maybe build 4 sections as you mentioned - but build them so the somehow bolt/unbolt or screw/unscrew together

zonetoys · Post by **zonetoys** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:45 pm

Why not use Foam Core board! (Paper covered foam)
Scribe the backside and bend it over a curved form till you get the contour desired! Glue design graphics to outside and it is lightweight also!
Fairly strong and rigid too! Available in different sizes/colors at most arts and crafts stores.
When glueing pieces together use hot glue and it will never seperate!

Moth · Post by **Moth** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:10 pm

It doesnt curve, it will fold/break.

zonetoys · Post by **zonetoys** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:25 pm

Moth wrote:It doesnt curve, it will fold/break.

Nah! I've worked with this stuff for 20+ years and made all kinds of forms with it. Scribe/Notch the back in rows parallel to bend, about 3/8 to 1/2 inch apart, and bend it over a curved surface and it will not split or break!
I used to even make 1:6 scale school buses for my kids Elementary school library!
You can even fiberglass over it when done if real strength is desired like in automobile add-ons (done that too!)

Moth · Post by **Moth** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:55 pm

Interesting, it always breaks for me, maybe I use a different type of it

tpa05 · Post by **tpa05** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:57 am

To Zonetoys - any chance of starting another thread where you detail how to do the fiberglass part. I can think of about 3-4 projects that I'd like to start if only I can make it lighter. I'm sure many of us would like to hear how it's done.

Post by **aferguson** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:33 am

Actually, this discussion may make a few good threads in the Customs Forum. People sharing various forms of expertise and knowledge and we can combine ideas etc to everyone's mutual benefit.

zonetoys · Post by **zonetoys** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:40 pm

tpa05 wrote:To Zonetoys - any chance of starting another thread where you detail how to do the fiberglass part. I can think of about 3-4 projects that I'd like to start if only I can make it lighter. I'm sure many of us would like to hear how it's done.

I'll give it some thought and try to throw together a few pics and see what I can come up with! Then I will post in the 'Customs' section. Foam Core really works great for lightweight large items!

Post by **aferguson** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:02 am

well, after much consideration and some trial and error, i've decided the best way to make a 1/18 full hull u-boat is to enlarge a card model and build it. All the calculating is done for you, the surface detailing is provided and i think the results would be better than anything one could hack out of styrofoam, by eye. At least better than what i could certainly do.

Will it be great? No. But it would be ok and the stupendousness of the size and creation of it would compensate for deficiencies in quality, i think.

I've built the stern section of a waterline u-boat and it doesn't suck (i'm building it in two 4 foot and one 3 foot sections...11 feet total length in 1/20 scale). Took about 10 hours to build, spread over about 8 days (for glue drying time). In a few days i'm going to do the bow section and then the middle. Once the basic waterline hull's finished all the detailing, detail paiinting and building of the conning tower begins. So a lot of work to do yet but the results thus far are encouraging.

What's very encouraging is that i've been able to make this thing pretty strong, so building a durable full hull uboat seems quite feasible, although a big undertaking. I figure the best approach would be to work away at it bit by bit over the course of a year or so, taking regular breaks so as to not get burned out by the project.

Here is a 1/100 built up model of a type IX....to give a rough idea of what a 1/18 scale version built from it would look like (i'm actually working in 1/20 scale as it greatly simplifies the myriad of calculations needed and makes it a tad more manageable in size).

http://www.kartonbau.de/wbb2/thread.php ... 3ea&page=6

Go to the last page for pics of finished model. Many of the paper details could be replaced by scratch built plastic parts, thereby improving the look of the finished model.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:45 am

aferguson one thing about card models you might want to coat it with polyurethane to prevent it from warping. trust me on that I found out the hard way, moisture or bugs can get in to it., and the polyurethane helps protect it.

Post by **aferguson** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:39 pm

well, card models are fairly resistant to warping because the fibres in the paper are all pulverized and not unidirectional, like in wood. Any warping that may occur in humid weather will straighten itself out once the humidity is gone. Plus i reinforce them heavily on the inside (using thick cardboard, pencils etc) to prevent any warping. So unless water gets directly on it (which is disasterous) they are pretty warp proof. I find that spraying them with dullcote also seals the paper and helps prevent warping.

Last summer was incredibly humid here and my two finished card models showed zero sign of warping....both are 1/18 tank models and thus a reasonable size.

But certainly sealing with something is a good idea....better safe than sorry.

FieroDude · Post by **FieroDude** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:11 pm

Depending on the surface finish, you may also try spraying them with, believe it or not, hairspray. I used to use plain old aerosol can Aquanet to seal and protect pastel paintings. It helped prevent warping from humidity, and made the pastels more resistant to smearing.

DISCLAIMER: I have never tried this on card models. Test on an inconspicuous area first. For best results, do not use near an open flame unless you are trying a one-time battle scene recreation.

Post by **aferguson** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:03 pm

would it not cause a glossy finish? I'll ask on cardmodels.net to see if it's ok to use on card models.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:50 pm

aferguson wrote:would it not cause a glossy finish? I'll ask on cardmodels.net to see if it's ok to use on card models.

If you spry it on before you paint it, you should not have a problem.

Post by **aferguson** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:16 pm

paint it? You normally don't paint card models. They are pre-printed in colour with details etc so you don't have to paint; aside from some bits of touch up and weathering.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:20 pm

aferguson wrote:paint it? You normally don't paint card models. They are pre-printed in colour with details etc so you don't have to paint; aside from some bits of touch up and weathering.

I am sorry I thought you where doing the same. I used to make them from scratch and had to paint them my-self.